This is an archived copy of a post written by Conflict Of Justice (conflictofjustice.com). Used with permission: Conflict Of Justice may not agree with any alterations made.
“No bones, hair, chariots, swords, armor, or any other evidence found whatsoever. Compare this to the Roman occupation of Britain and other countries.”
(CES Letter)
Plentiful Evidence
There is plenty of evidence. Friar Diego de Landa noticed baptism rituals in ancient America. Mariano Veytia heard stories of natural catastrophes during the same year as the death of Jesus Christ. Bernardino de Sahagu heard legends that the natives had originated from ships across the sea. There are lots of specific evidences mentioned in the Book of Mormon that have been found by archaeologists.
Not Enough Descriptions To Correlate With – When it comes to many things, the problem is there is not enough description in the Book of Mormon to correlate what has been found definitively with the Lamanites/Nephites. Coins found around the world (including in America) have been identified as Roman because of the unique characteristics of the coins–faces of Roman leaders. The Nephites did not have this. If we found a coin in Mexico with some guy’s head on it, we couldn’t tell if that guy was a Nephite or not. Short of discovering a golden plate that says “Hi, my name is Nephi, I’m a Mormon, and I traveled from Jerusalem,” there are not enough unique descriptions from the Book of Mormon to correlate with archaeological discoveries.
“No bones, hair, chariots, swords, armor, or any other evidence found whatsoever. Compare this to the Roman occupation of Britain and other countries. There are abundant evidences of their presence during the first 400 years AD such as villas, mosaic floors, public baths, armor, weapons, writings, art, pottery and so on. Even the major road systems used today in some of these occupied countries were built by the Romans. Additionally, there is ample evidence of the Mayan and Aztec civilizations as well as a civilization in current day Texas that dates back 15,000 years. Where are the Nephite or Lamanite buildings, roads, armors, swords, pottery, art, etc.?”
(CES Letter)
This argument really poisons the well for any discussion, because the Nephites probably were a Mayan tribe! That’s like arguing “the legend of Atlantis couldn’t possibly be based on a real place because there are all these ruins of sunken cities around Greece, but where are the ruins of Atlantis?” It is nonsense. Totally illogical.
CES Letter lists villas, mosaics, armor, and pottery unique to Rome. But where does the Book of Mormon provide unique descriptions of villas, mosaics, or pottery? (Other than the cement buildings and Solomon-like temples that have been found, of course.) The reason we know Roman mosaics are Roman is because we have lots of books that describe Roman mosaics. But we have no way to identify a mosaic as Nephite or not Nephite. How are we supposed to tell if a Mayan tribe was Nephite or not?
How do we know that the Mayan road systems that are still in use today aren’t Nephite? The Book of Mormon’s descriptions match. Every time we point out similarities to Mayan buildings, roads, and armor, the Anti-Mormons pass it off as coincidence. Or descriptions are too scant to make a proper comparison. Oh, the Nephites couldn’t possibly have been a Mayan tribe!
This shows the profound flaw behind CES Letter‘s appeals to science. They illogically restrict our options to two possible scenarios, and then removes all context that would be helpful to the discussion. Instead of comparing Native American baptism rituals and legends of White sky gods with the Book of Mormon, CES Letter talks about mosaics and pottery, which is never mentioned in the Book of Mormon. This is what Anti-Mormons consider real science.
- Villas – Not mentioned in the Book of Mormon
- Mosaics – Not mentioned in the Book of Mormon
- Armor – Mentioned but not described at all in the Book of Mormon
- Pottery- Not mentioned in the Book of Mormon
Nothing In Book of Mormon Has Been Discredited
Previously, CES Letter cherry-picked 13 things mentioned in the Book of Mormon that have not been well correlated with physical archaeology, such as horses and elephants. But this is disingenuous because horses and elephants did roam in America a long time ago, and it is a matter of when they went extinct. Again, CES Letter removed proper context. Can science prove that Native Americans had no horses, or horse-like animals?
Wouldn’t the scientific thing be to start with the most detailed descriptions in the Book of Mormon, such as baptism and legends of White sky gods, and look at those comparisons? Why does CES Letter cherry-pick a handful of things that are barely mentioned and not at all described?
The burden of proof lies with CES Letter to discredit the plentiful evidence that has been uncovered. And if you are going to cherry-pick a handful of poor physical evidences, prove that no horses existed in America in that time frame, anywhere. Prove that when Joseph Smith wrote “Horse” he meant the E. caballus instead of any “neighing quadruped, used in war and draught and carriage,” which is how the 1792 dictionary defined “horse.” Instead, CES Letter points to some other civilization that has much more correlating physical evidence because it has vast libraries of books and writings available for comparison. If the angel Moroni had handed Joseph Smith vast libraries of books to translate, this would be a fair comparison, but he didn’t.
Nephites Were Wiped Out – Rome may have collapsed as a government, but its culture passed on continuously in Europe and Western Asia, to this day. This is not true for the Nephites–which is another reason why the comparison with Rome is invalid. The Nephites were utterly wiped out. A few things may have been passed down to other tribes, such as the baptism rituals, but most of the things mentioned in the Book of Mormon weren’t. They died with the Nephites. Additionally, the conquistadors wiped out many of the things that may have been passed down.
CES Letter Logical Fallacies
| Poisoning the Well | The comparison to Mayans and Aztecs is not even worth debunking, because the Nephites/Lamanites may have been early Mayan or Aztec groups. In fact, I think they were. CES Letter does not permit this possibility by listing them as a separate civilization. |
| Argument From Ignorance | Vast volumes of books passed down through the years correlate physical evidence. The Nephites only have a tiny book about theology that mentions a few things. |
| Availability Bias | The things which CES Letter lists, such as horses and elephants, are only mentioned a couple times in the Book of Mormons and are a poor vehicle for validating or invalidating the Book of Momron. For example, it is well accepted that elephants marched with invading armies on Rome, yet no physical evidence has been found to support this. Does that mean Rome never existed? Even with all these books about Rome, evidence can be shaky. The famous Capitolin Wod is considered by many to be a modern fabrication. CES Letter is asking a question that is impossible to answer because there is no way to correlate the Book of Mormon, short of discovering a set of metal plates that say, “Hi my name is Nephi,” which would be very unlikely to happen. How much evidence is there for whether King Arthur lived or not? Genghis Khan? |
| Bandwagon | For thousands of years, everybody has agreed that Rome existed, but experts are divided about many of the specific claims about Rome. What we know about Rome and the Book of Mormon civilizations is reliant upon books passed down and what we find in the ground. Roman books talk about roads. The Book of Mormon talks about roads, and indeed ancient American roads “cast up” have been found to correlate this claim. So what’s the difference? |
| False Comparison | Rome lived on in the East after 400 A.D. It was a much larger kingdom. It did not get wiped away after the government fell and later by conquistadors. It produced many more writings. |
| Shifting Goalposts | CES Letter lists 13 things that supposedly have not been found by archaeologists. Roads are mentioned in the Book of Mormon, and have been found, but now CES Letter dismisses this as evidence because Roman roads were built over in subsequent years into the roads we have today, while we don’t know whether ancient American roads are Nephite or not. Huh? |
Fake Science – Science does not jump to a conclusion if there is lack of evidence one way or another. CES Letter constrains the physical evidence into a false dilemna–either we find mosaic floors and pottery that we can correlate as Nephite, or Nephites never existed. This false argument appeals to science as the higher source for truth yet is itself highly unscientific. CES Letter thus puts the burden of proof on Mormons in bad faith.
The scientific thing to do would be to find an object in ancient America that the Book of Mormon claims was never there but we can see definitely was. That would be a solid argument. But instead, they make a sweeping generalization that something the Book of Mormon mentions once or twice couldn’t possibly have been there. This is science? Actual science should be investigated and celebrated by Mormons and non-Mormons alike, but this is just generalizing. The Book of Mormon was never intended to be an anthropology record or an authority about which animals existed at which time. Mormon was not a scientist who studied animals and plants. He was a military leader writing a volume about theology.
CES Letter moves into clown world, where a civilization didn’t exist unless there is as much correlating evidence for it as there is for Rome. You can make this argument for anything! Cleopatra? Alexander the Great? Never existed. In order for their clown argument to be remotely sound, we need evidence for every little thing mentioned in Roman literature to know Rome existed. What about Atlantis? Didn’t Homer talk about an underwater city named Atlantis? Well that hasn’t been found, so by CES Letter‘s logic, that invalidates all of Rome. If they lied about Atlantis, what else did they lie about?
So, CES Letter makes a one-sided argument that is impossible to prove, totally unscientific. This appeal to physical evidence pushes people toward superstition and makes it hard to develop faith in anything. We went from 13 alleged anachronisms in the Book of Mormon that are missing, to no evidence at all! Boy, quite a leap! Suddenly, the buildings, roads, and armor that have been found and do match Book of Mormon descriptions doesn’t matter any more. Book of Mormon descriptions and context don’t matter any more.
| See also: | CES Letter Contradiction Strategy |
Contradiction Strategy – CES Letter again uses the contradiction strategy of agitation, and shifts focus to science vs. religion. They demand Mormons explain every little tiny part of their conflicting claim, rather than just accepting some things are unclear or unknown. Satan likewise pushes people to make sweeping assumptions based on current “science” and refuse to accept something as unknown. They make sweeping generalizations in order to define everything and get to the “particular essence” and replace people’s general understanding. This kind of superstition is the opposite of faith.
To followers of Satan, what makes something historically accurate? Rome is accurate because there is physical evidence, there are writing to correlate the evidence, and there is a long-standing consensus. But what about human evolution? We have some bones to help build the theory, yet Social Justice Warriors hold human evolution as gospel truth, despite no ancient writings to correlate and no solid physical evidence for all pieces of the puzzle. The truth is we have little physical evidence for any historical narrative. SJWs jump on the bandwagon of popular “scientific” truth and trust only in what they could see.
Big Lie Tactic – The outrageous claim that absolutely no archaeological evidence exists is backed up by a string of illogical arguments. Their restricted scope of evidence does not tolerate reasonable investigation.
They can get away with this incredible claim because it is the consensus among so many people that Nephites never existed, and because it takes so long to explain the evidence. It is like claiming that the Library of Alexandria never really existed because we have no physical evidence today, apart from some alleged ancient tales. An archaeologist can give plenty of convincing evidence, but it would take hours.
CES Letter tells this Big Lie early on, and each following argument that relies on the Big Lie further bolsters the illogical claim, as if they are further evidence for it.
Creating Superstition – CES Letter reinforces their narrative that Mormons need science to validate every single detail of their faith. They frame the Book of Mormon as a “model” that has no evidence for it–an easy trick for them to play when it comes to ancient history as they discount every piece of evidence as coincidence, forged, or unfounded.
This narrative led the crusaders to seek out physical objects from the holy land to validate the bible, pieces of the cross or the cup of Jesus Christ. It always leads to superstition, because no amount of science can prove without reasonable doubt that a historical object is what it purports to be. The Shroud of Turin? If a book of metal plates titled “Nephi’s Journal” were discovered in Mexico City today, do you think CES Letter would change their minds? No amount of scientific testing would convince them. Even if it couldn’t be denied as legitimate, they would pass it off as coincidence.
It would actually be detrimental to Mormonism if metal plates of Nephi’s journal were found, because it would shift our narrative away from matters of faith toward unspiritual confirmation of a historical event from physical evidence. And that’s what CES Letter is trying to do. The shift away from faith serves Satan’s intentions because a person who relies on superstition is not practicing personal agency, but being total reliant on others for his beliefs and actions.Complete answers to CES Letter questions about Mormons: