This is an archived copy of a post written by Conflict Of Justice (conflictofjustice.com). Used with permission: Conflict Of Justice may not agree with any alterations made.
“Unofficial apologists are coming up with the Limited Geography Model (it happened in Central or South America)… that the real Hill Cumorah is not in Palmyra, New York but is elsewhere and possibly somewhere down there instead. This is in direct contradiction to what Joseph Smith and other prophets have taught.”
(CES Letter)
More Than One Cumorah
We use the word “Cumorah” today as a proper noun to refer to small hill where Joseph Smith retrieved the gold plates. But in the Book of Mormon itself, there are at least two places “called” Cumorah: a land and a large hill which oversees an entire land. It clearly refers to two different places. This means Cumorah was a name which was not exclusive to one place.
When someone says “at Lehi,” are they talking about the modern city in Utah, or the city of Lehi from the Book of Mormon, or the land of Lehi in the Book of Mormon? Words get assigned to multiple places over time. We see this happen a lot in the Book of Mormon.
The Jaradite word for Cumorah, Ramah, appears to be a variant of the Hebrew ramah, “elevation, height.” The word Cumorah appears to be related to the Akkadian verb kamaru, “to heap up, to layer.” The prophet Ether said of the final Jaradite Battle at Ramah/Cumorah: “their bones should become as heaps of earth upon the face of the land.” So both Ramah and Cumorah are Jaradite descriptions of a place. Maybe they called lots of places “Cumorah,” as there are certainly many places that are high and heaped up. Maybe they called lots of places “Cumorah.”
Joseph Smith Didn’t Say Where Cumorah Was
No, Joseph Smith did not teach that the battle of Cumorah was in New York. The only thing Joseph Smith said about it was that Central America matches the description of the Nephite civilization. CES Letter gives no link or reference to any prophet contradicting the multiple-location theory. The earliest second-hand reference to the small hill in New York is David Whitmer in 1878 and his context is unclear.
Plenty of early Mormons and Mormon leaders have assumed that the small hill in New York is where the battle occurred, that is true. But that is only because they were assuming there was only one Cumorah. Yes, some Mormon leaders have theorized that New York was the location of the Nephite battle, but there is nothing in the Book of Mormon to indicate that the Cumorah where Joseph Smith secured the gold plate records was the same hill where the Nephites had their great battle.
The Book of Mormon locates the battle of Cumorah near a narrow neck of land between two oceans, which does not fit anywhere in New York. CES Letter switches the location of Cumorah/ Ramah to Canada in an argument later on because its geography does not fit New York. So even CES Letter admits it geographically couldn’t possibly be in New York. The hill Cumorah where the battle took place was of large size overseeing the entire land, unlike the New York hill. That hill is only 30-50 feet high.
Or–who knows–maybe the battle actually was in New York and all evidence was picked up by people in the ensuing years, apart from some spears and arrows which have been found? We just don’t know. We are given too little information to tell. The ‘Hill Cumorah’ in Manchestor New York is very small, 30-50 ft high: by Ken Lundon flickr (creative commons license)
CES Letter Logical Fallacies
| Falsehood | “We read about two major war battles that took place at the Hill Cumorah (Ramah to the Jaredites) that numbered in the deaths of at least 2,000,000 people. No bones, hair, chariots, swords, armor, or any other evidence found whatsoever.” (CES Letter) According to George Albert Smith, he and local farmers found “numerous spear and arrow-heads” at the Hill Cumorah site in New York. In 1901, Susan Young Gates said she saw “baskets filled with arrow heads” plowed up by local farmers. So yes, evidence has been found. CES Letter‘s number of killed in battle is incredibly false. The 2 million people mentioned in the Book of Mormon died previous to the battle at Cumorah. Only those left over after the 2 million died fought at Cumorah. Therefore, the number of dead at Cumorah is much less. Joseph Smith never taught that Cumorah was in New York. |
| Strawman Argument | Apologists do not say Cumorah was not in New York. This is an incorrect portrayal of what anyone says. Rather, there could be multiple locations called Cumorah. The Book of Mormon does not mention swords, chariots, or armor existing anywhere near the time of the Cumorah battle, so why would those things be expected to be found? Also, why would hair be preserved many thousands of years on the ground and be found? The only thing we could hope to find are bones or some kind of weapon. Other prophets have not contradicted the theory that the Cumorah battle did not take place in New York, apart from a few speculative writings in much later years. |
| Ad Hominem Attack | CES Letter discounts this vast field of study by calling scholars and investigators mere “unofficial apologists.” |
| False Dilemma | There is no reason why Cumorah has to only be at one place or another. Names are given to multiple places all the time in the Book of Mormon. |
| Non Sequiter | “Never mind that the Church has a visitor’s center there in New York and holds annual Hill Cumorah pageants.” (CES Letter) Besides failing to give any evidence for their false claim that Joseph Smith located Cumorah in New York, CES Letter points to the Hill Cumorah pageant in New York as evidence that this is what Mormons really believe. Why? Are pageants always performed at the site of the scenes they depict? Is there some part of this pageant I don’t know about that declares “New York is where this really happened?” How is the visitor’s center for the location where Joseph Smith retrieved the plates evidence where the battle of Cumorah was located? |
| Argument From Ignorance | Just because bones and hair haven’t been found doesn’t mean somebody didn’t die there many thousands of years ago. |
| Appeal To Ridicule | “Never mind that the Church has a visitor’s center there in New York.” This sounds like something a middle-schooler would say because he doesn’t have an argument to stand on. |
| Kafkatrapping | The fact that Mormon scholars come up with multiple models for Book of Mormon geography implies guilt, that it is all made up. But really, how is the existence of ‘alternative theories’ evidence of falsehood? |
| Shifting Goalposts | In a later argument, CES Letter claims Ramah (Cumorah) is in Canada, not upstate New York. So I guess CES Letter admits that Joseph Smith’s Cumorah isn’t meant to be in New York? CES Letter completely contradicts themselves with this shift in location and debunks their own argument! |
| See also: | CES Letter Contradiction Strategy |
Contradiction Strategy – CES Letter lies to portray an inconsistency in LDS belief, and then presents science as the superior alternative source for truth. CES Letter uses the contradiction strategy by narrowing a physical issue down to a binary context: either there is plentiful evidence of bones, hair, swords, armor, and chariots at the Hill Cumorah site in New York, or the battle events never happened. No other choices. They then appeal to “science” and deconstruct the ‘outdated’ Mormon belief.
Anti-Mormons typically present evidence for their binary context as self-evident and irrefutable, with no need for further explanation, and then they rapidly move on to other attacks that bolster the constrained definition. The purpose is not really to discuss the site of the battle or what the name Cumorah actually means, which would be an interesting discussion, but to shift the narrative from faith to binary science, and quickly move on to more effective attacks to strengthen this narrative.
Divide The Enemy – An important part of the Contradiction Strategy is to divide the enemy: “pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it.” CES Letter exploits the disagreement among LDS members about where the battle of Cumorah actually took place because of the fact that we really don’t know. This sows discord and isolation within the Mormon community and opens up further opportunities to divide and conquer Mormons through social avenues.
Big Lie Tactic – In the previous argument, CES Letter made the case that no archaeological evidence exists for the Book of Mormon at all. This is the Big Lie that they use in their subsequent arguments to disprove the Book of Mormon.
They can get away with this incredible claim because it is the consensus among so many people that Nephites never existed, and because it takes so long to explain the evidence. Maybe at first the critically thinking reader is skeptical of CES Letter‘s sweeping generalization, but after half a dozen serious implications of the Big Lie later, our minds begin to turn.
It is like claiming that the Library of Alexandria never really existed because we have no physical evidence today, apart from some alleged ancient tales. An archaeologist can give plenty of convincing evidence, but it would take hours. This gives CES Letter to throw a bunch of huge strawman arguments in there about what “other prophets have taught.” By providing zero evidence to support their own claims, CES Letter makes them appear self-evident, like the Book of Mormon must be false because it takes so long to explain it.
CES Letter tells this Big Lie early on, and each following argument that relies on the Big Lie further bolsters the illogical claim, as if they are further evidence for it.
Creating Superstition – CES Letter also pushes the strawman arguments of what Mormons actually believe in order to portray Mormons as at odds with science–though, when it comes to CES Letter‘s version of science, one could never prove religious narratives; only disprove them.
Why is the church holding a pageant at the drumlin hill in New York if that isn’t really where the final battle took place? The answer should be obvious! But this question makes total sense if you are a follower of Satan, because to Satan, media propaganda such as pageants are about filling in gaps in the narrative, the unknowns. To them, pageants push superstition and prevent people from thinking critically; just do what you are told. In the CES Letter version of the Hill Cumorah pageant, maybe they pass around gold plates for proof and give updated translations from the plates that were previously sealed.
But this is not faith. Faith is being okay with no knowing where the battle took place and yet still learning important lessons from the battle through personal critical thought. I believe this is why George Albert Smith didn’t parade around the baskets of arrowheads as proof for the church membership. This argument from CES Letter reinforces their narrative that Mormons need science to validate every single detail of their faith. They frame the Book of Mormon as a “model” that has no evidence for it–an easy trick for them to play when it comes to ancient history as they discount every piece of evidence as coincidence, forged, contradictory, or unfounded.
This narrative led the crusaders to seek out physical objects from the holy land to validate the bible, pieces of the cross or the cup of Jesus Christ. It always leads to superstition, because no amount of science can prove without reasonable doubt that a historical object is what it purports to be. The Shroud of Turin? If a book of metal plates titled “Nephi’s Journal” were discovered in Mexico City today, do you think CES Letter would change their minds? No amount of scientific testing would convince them. Even if it couldn’t be denied as legitimate, they would pass it off as coincidence.
It would actually be detrimental to Mormonism if heaps of bones and weapons were found at the drumlin hill in New York, because it would shift our narrative away from matters of faith toward unspiritual confirmation of a historical event from physical evidence. And that’s what CES Letter is trying to do. The shift away from faith serves Satan’s intentions because a person who relies on superstition is not practicing personal agency, but being total reliant on others for his beliefs and actions. The Marxist ideology is to believe only what you have a physical explanation for and to twist it however you need to for the current narrative. Mormons do not need to do this.Complete answers to CES Letter questions about Mormons: