This is an archived copy of a post written by Conflict Of Justice ( Used with permission: Conflict Of Justice may not agree with any alterations made.

“2 Nephi 2:22 and Alma 12:23-24 state there was no death of any kind (humans, all animals, birds, fish, dinosaurs, etc.) on this earth until the “Fall of Adam”, which according to D&C 77:6-7 occurred 7,000 years ago. It is scientifically established there has been life and death on this planet for billions of years. How does the Church reconcile this?” (CES Letter)


  • 2 Nephi 2:22 does not say anything about death. It only says Adam and Even were in a state of childlike innocence, and everything would have remained in the same state forever that it was in. “And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end. And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence…” (2 Nephi 2:22-23)
  • Alma 12 does not say Adam was immortal and there was no death. It only says Adam become immortal if he had eaten of the tree of life. Doesn’t this indicate that Adam was mortal already? “And now behold, I say unto you that if it had been possible for Adam to have partaken of the fruit of the tree of life at that time, there would have been no death, and the word would have been void, making God a liar, for he said: If thou eat thou shalt surely die. And we see that death comes upon mankind, yea, the death which has been spoken of by Amulek, which is the temporal death; nevertheless there was a space granted unto man in which he might repent; therefore this life became a probationary state; a time to prepare to meet God; a time to prepare for that endless state which has been spoken of by us, which is after the resurrection of the dead.” (Alma 12:23-24)
So the premise of this argument is totally wrong. Nobody claimed fish and dinosaurs were immortal before the fall of Adam. The scriptures never claimed that there weren’t already cycles of life and death. We assume in the church that Adam and Even lived a very long time before they partook of the forbidden fruit and transgressed, but there is no indication in the scriptures for how long that was or that they wouldn’t at some point have died of old age.

Science vs. Faith?CES Letter runs with their lie:

“The problem Mormonism encounters is that so many of its claims are well within the realm of scientific study, and as such, can be proven or disproven. To cling to faith in these areas, here the overwhelming evidence is against it, is willful ignorance, not spiritual dedication. ” (CES Letter)

As well as being wrong about the scriptures, CES Letter is wrong about science. Science doesn’t prove or disprove anything. The purpose of science is to efficiently serve a utility, not to find final “truth.” Scientists have developed different theories for different uses, and regardless of how soundly those theories serve us, they are always still just theories.

See also:Do Scriptures Teach Discredited Newtonian Science?

Science is the study of physical truth, not spiritual truth, and this is a very important distinction to make. Any attempt to draw spiritual conclusions out of a physical premise is the very definition of superstition. That’s what this argument does. CES Letter starts with a scientific theory and incorrectly compares it to scripture. This is no different than looking at lightning in the sky and wondering whether it came from Zeus or not. CES Letter‘s argument disregards spiritual faith by assuming that physical science always either proves or disproves it. The existence of Zeus now depends on our study of lightning.

The problem with this is science is always changing and updating. We are always learning new things and coming up with new theories. “Physical evidence” can easily be manipulated and twisted, as CES Letter does here. There is so much in the universe that we don’t know, it would be foolish to base our lives only on what the scientific “community” tells us. It would be even more foolish to base things that we can’t see and put under a microscope, such as ethics, morality, and spirituality, and the study of physical science.

So I am not sure why CES Letter thinks scientists are any kind of authority about who Adam was, if Adam existed, how long Adam lived, or how Adam relates to us.

What About Monkeys?CES Letter says:

“If Adam and Eve are the first humans, how do we explain the 14 other Hominin species who lived and died 35,000 – 250,000 years before Adam? When did those guys stop being human?” (CES Letter)

What? Adam became “human” when he ate the forbidden fruit! That was the whole point of the story! Adam ate forbidden fruit, became “human,” and we are his descendants. What is so difficult about that?

“When did those guys stop being human?” Hominin species actually aren’t human. Gorillas aren’t human. Chimpanzees aren’t human. That’s why they are called chimpanzees and not humans. For someone who clings so much to science it is weird that CES Letter would get this wrong. Those “guys” didn’t start being human or stop being human. The only human Hominin species is Homo Sapiens.

Was Adam the first animal to have Homo Sapien genes? Maybe, maybe not. He was the first animal with the ability to “sin” and receive forgiveness. That is what makes him our “father” as far as the scriptures are concerned. Adam sinned, and thus we have a probationary state to try to repent before we die. The important thing about being human is our ability to recognize death and truly find salvation to overcome death. The forbidden fruit established human behavior which separates us from the rest of the animal kingdom.

See also:Do Mormons Deny Science & Facts?

Does CES Letter seriously think chimpanzees and gorillas are the same as humans? This is a false equivelancy that skeptics and atheists often use against spirituality, that animals somehow are equal to us. If we fit this into a frame of Socialism, the message is that we all should be on an equal playing field, gorillas and humans, will equal rights and everything equal. We should tremble before death the same way gorillas do. Well Mormons are all for equal rights, but we recognize that humans gained an ability that other animals don’t have, and that is to be like our Father in Heaven. We aren’t divided into different species and individual differences in order to unite with equal ability and equal merits, but so that we can excel on an individual basis. Death does not exist as a punishment for existing, but as an opportunity to gain the merits for eternal exaltation.

This is why Socialists are so offended by the Adam and Eve story. Their outrage isn’t really about the talking snake and forbidden fruit, but that humans are lifted as superior to other animals In the Socialist cult of equality, humans are machines for production and consumption just like anything else. They think it is dangerous to arrogantly think we have divine potential as individuals.

CES Letter Logical Fallacies

FalsehoodCES Letter suggests other Hominem species like gorillas were human: “If Adam and Eve are the first humans, how do we explain the 14 other Hominin species… When did those guys stop being human?” The entire premise of this argument is false. The Book of Mormons does not say death did not exist for any creature before Adam and Eve.
Argument From IgnoranceWe do not know the physical process of creating Adam’s body nor how long he lived in the state of innocence in the Garden of Eden.
Bandwagon“scientifically established”
Argument From IgnoranceWe do not know the physical process of creating Adam’s body nor how long he lived in the state of innocence in the Garden of Eden.
StrawmanIn my public school science class, I learned that science explores reoccurring physical phenomena, not that it proves what “truth” is, and especially not that it proves or disproves spiritual ideas.
Shifting GoalpostsCES Letter just argued that LDS temple ceremonies don’t go back to Solomon’s temple, yet now they seem to push human evolution, even though not all physical links in human history have been proven. CES letter previously arued that there were inconsistencies between the bible and Book of Mormon, but now they attack what is in the bible.

This is the perfect place for CES Letter to declare “science” as the correct method for truth, even as they push fake science. They just got done appealing to universal salvation, and now they push faith in science so that we have a vehicle to get there. Science can be manipulated and “updated” however it needs to.

Contradiction StrategyCES Letter goes back and forth between too much similarity and too much difference between other sources.

A requirement of the strategy being used by anti-Mormons is that each part of the Mormon belief system needs a ‘particular essence.’ Followers of Satan can never say: “Well, we just don’t know.” They need an answer for every part, so that they can deconstruct every part, belief by belief.

This is easier to accomplish when the answer are constantly shifting and you don’t have to settle on one single truth, like Mormons have to. One day, Joseph Smith got his geography names from upstate New York. In a couple years, if we look at anti-Mormon websites they might tell us he actually got them from some book he read, or a map of Mongolia that a family friend possessed. As for Freemasonry, if tomorrow a document surfaces that unmistakably connects Freemason rituals to Jerusalem’s temple, anti-Mormons will just shift the narrative to something else–probably shift to inconsistencies.

When it comes to history, there is so much we don’t know and will never know. Fools jump to conclusions. Followers of Satan are easily tricked when it comes to history, because they are lazy and do not care to use critical thought. If there is vague evidence for something but we mostly don’t know what really happened because it is ancient history, followers of Satan will jump to lazy conclusions, whatever narrative is hyped on in the media and dressed up in emotional language.

It is easy to manipulate Satan’s followers when it comes to history because they rely only on what they can see and put no true faith in anything.

Categories: Apologetics