This is an archived copy of a post written by Conflict Of Justice (conflictofjustice.com). Used with permission: Conflict Of Justice may not agree with any alterations made.
“Joseph Smith used a rock in a hat for translating the Book of Mormon. In other words, he used the same ‘Ouija Board’ that he used in his days treasure hunting where he would put in a rock – or a peep stone – in his hat and put his face in the hat to tell his customers the location of buried treasure. He used the exact same method while the gold plates were covered or put in another room or buried in the woods during translating the Book of Mormon… Why is the Church not being honest and transparent to its members about how Joseph Smith really translated the Book of Mormon? How am I supposed to be okay with this deception?” (CES Letter)
Claims that Joseph Smith used a seer stone:
| David Whitmer (via Richard van Wagoner, via Zenas H. Gurley), 1982 “[H]e used a stone called a “Seers stone,” the “Interpreters” having been taken away from him because of transgression. The “Interpreters” were taken from Joseph after he allowed Martin Harris to carry away the 116 pages of [the manuscript] of the Book of Mormon as a punishment, but he was allowed to go on and translate by use of a “Seers stone” which he had, and which he placed in a hat into which he buried his face, stating to me and others that the original character appeared upon parchment and under it the translation in English.” (Joseph Smith: ‘The Gift of Seeing’) | – fourth-hand modern quote from a non-LDS source – (Details of claim: Seer stone is different than Urim and Thummim, seer stone was always used after the 116 pages, seer stone was used in a hat) |
| Oliver Cowdery 1839 (forgery by R.B. Neal, 1906) “I have sometimes had seasons of skepticism, in which I did seriously wonder whether the Prophet and I were men in our sober senses, when he would be translating from plates, through “the Urim and Thummim” and the plates not be in sight at all. But I believed in both the Seer and the “Seer stone,” and what the First Elder announced as revelation from God, I accepted as such, and committed to paper with a glad mind and happy heart and swift pen; for I believed him to be the soul of honor and truth, a young man who would die before he would lie.” | – Proven forged quote – (Details of claim: Seer stone is different than Urim and Thummim, used seer stone) |
| David Whitmer, 1887 “Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat, and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light; and in the darkness the spiritual light would shine. A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and on that appeared the writing. [Page 175]One character at a time would appear, and under it was the interpretation in English. Brother Joseph would read off the English to Oliver Cowdery, who was his principal scribe, and when it was written down and repeated to Brother Joseph to see if it was correct, then it would disappear, and another character with the interpretation would appear. Thus the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God, and not by any power of man .” (An Address to All Believers in Christ) | – The beginning of Whitmer’s book states its purpose to convince LDS to denounce polygmy and join the splinter group RLDS, that Joseph Smith was “drifting into errors after translating the Book of Mormon.” – Given one year before David Whitmer’s death, edited & published by non-LDS – (Details of claim: Used stone in hat) |
| Emma Smith Bigamon 1879 “In writing for your father I frequently wrote day after day, often sitting at the table close by him, he sitting with his face buried in his hat, with the stone in it, and dictating hour after hour with nothing between us.” | – Quoted soon before her death – Preceding chapter denies polygamy, for which there is plenty of evidence – Second-hand non-LDS source – (Details of claim: Used stone in hat) |
| Emma Smith Bidamon (via Emma Pilgrim), 1981 “Now the first that my translated, [the book] was translated by use of the Urim, and Thummim, and that was the part that Martin Harris lost, after that he used a small stone, not exactly, black, but was rather a dark color.” | – Source is the wife of a pastor for the RLDS splinter group – The first mention of this quote is fourth-hand from the 1981 “The John Whitmer Historical Association Journal.” There is no evidence that the 1870 source, a letter, actually exists. – (Details of claim: Seer stone is different than Urim and Thummim, seer stone was always used after the 116 pages, seer stone was used in a hat) |
| Martin Harris (via Edward Stevenson), 1881 “…that the Prophet possessed a seer stone, by which he was enabled to translate as well as from the Urim and Thummim, and for convenience he then used the seer stone.” | – Edward Stevenson was quoting the Evening News newspaper September 5, 1870 by an unknown author -This quote refers to “an incident,” a singular time he he used the seer stone, instead of what the other quotes claim -Third-hand, unknown source 50 years after Joseph Smith’s translation – (Details of claim: Seer stone is different than Urim and Thummim, used the seer stone at least once) |
| Kenneth W. Godfrey, 1988 “From April 12 to June 14, Joseph translated while Martin wrote, with only a curtain between them. On occasion they took breaks from the arduous task, sometimes going to the river and throwing stones. Once Martin found a rock closely resembling the seer stone Joseph sometimes used in place of the interpreters and substituted it without the Prophet’s knowledge. When the translation resumed, Joseph paused for a long time and then exclaimed, “Martin, what is the matter, all is as dark as Egypt.” Martin then confessed that he wished to “stop the mouths of fools” who told him that the Prophet memorized sentences and merely repeated them.” | -Written in 1988. The source link to lds.org is now broken. Totally unreliable quote. – (Details of claim: Seer stone is different than Urim and Thummim, used the seer stone at least once) |
| J.L. Traughber Jr., 1879 “With the sanction of David Whitmer, and by his authority, I now state that he does not say that Joseph Smith ever translated in his presence by aid of Urim and Thummim; but by means of one dark colored, opaque stone, called a “Seer Stone,” which was placed in the crown of a hat, into which Joseph put his face, so as to exclude the external light. Then, a spiritual light would shine forth, and parchment would appear before Joseph, upon which was a line of characters from the plates, and under it, the translation in English; at least, so Joseph said.” | – Non-LDS source – Contradicts other quotes – (Details of claim: Seer stone is different than Urim and Thummim, always used the seer stone) |
| David Whitmer (via Chicago Inter-Ocean, via The Saints Herald) 1886 | |
| “By fervent prayer and by otherwise humbling himself, the prophet, however, again found favor, and was presented with a strange oval-shaped, chocolate-colored stone, about the size of an egg, only more flat, which, it was promised, should serve the same purpose as the missing urim and thummim (the latter was a pair of transparent stones set in a bow-shaped frame and very much resembled a pair of spectacles). With this stone all of the present Book of Mormon was translated.” | – Fourth-hand non-LDS source, an unknown reporter in Chicago – Contradicts other quotes -Allegedly given on David Whitmer’s deathbed – (Details of claim: Seer stone is different than Urim and Thummim, given by an angel, always used the seer stone) |
- The rock and hat hoax made a resurgence again in the 1980’s, when RLDS published alleged quotes from early Mormon sources. Most notable is David Whitmer’s quote that the Urim and Thummim “interpreters” were taken away by an angel after Joseph Smith lost the 116 pages of the Book of Mormon. The “seer stones” mentioned in most other quotes could possibly refer to the two white stones in the Urim and Thummim, but this quote draws a clear distinction between them and the “treasure hunting” rock that Joseph Smith supposedly used. The problem is that this quote is that it is a modern creation. The LDS scholarly journal Mormon Interpreter incorrectly attributes this to David Whitmer’s 1887 book. But actually it comes from a 1982 book by Richard van Wagoner and Steven Walker. Wagoner gets the quote from apostate RLDS apostle Zenas H. Gurley, who claims to get the quote from David Whitmer. Why did it take fifty years for Zenas Gurley to mention what David Whitmer said? Why did it take a century for Richard van Wagoner to mention what Zenas Gurley said? Why can’t we see the original David Whitmer document? Where is it?/li>
- LDS scholars and anti-Mormons accept the second-hand quote attributed to Emma Smith, yet do not accept the paragraph immediately preceding it which denies polygamy in the early church. Why accept one part of what she said but deny the other? Why not consider the part opening of David Whitmer’s book that states its purpose was to convince people that Joseph Smith was a fallen prophet?
- The quotes contradict one another. Sometimes he used the stone… he always used the stone… he used it once… he used it for “convenience…” he used it because the Urim and Thumim got taken away, etc.
- Many of these quotes are attributed to David Whitmer. How did David Whitmer know how to describe the spectacles if they were taken away before he started helping with the translation? David Whitmer entered the translation process after the 116 pages were lost. So then why does he provide a detailed description of them immediately before the Inter-Ocean quote? Why does the quote attributed to David Whitmer claim an angel gave the seer stone to him to translate the plates?
- The phony quote from Martin Harris claims Joseph Smith used the seer stone for “convenience,” but how is it convenient to stick your head in a hat so that no light shines through around the edges? What made the seer stone more convenient? Why would Moroni provide spectacles already set up to wear on the head if looking at some random rock with very dim lighting is somehow more convenient? Furthermore, the seer stone was reportedly used to help find things. How would a stone used for this purpose help translate ancient writing? The narrative is totally inconsistent.
- There is admittedly one similarity between the “treasure hunting” seer stone and the Urim and Thumim: they both used rocks. The Urim and Thumim used two round white rocks in a silver frame around the head, like glasses. The alleged seer stone was used by looking into it as well. This is probably where the mix-up came from and why so many early sources talk about “stones” without mentioning the spectacles they were within. Some people just naturally equated the two. But the differences are very important:
- The Urim and Thumim was used for spiritual purposes only. The seer stone was used for physical objects. There is some evidence that Joseph Smith indeed used a seer stone as a teenager to look for things, but there is no evidence that he ever used it for spiritual purposes.
- The Urim and Thumim was given by an angel. The seer stone was found somewhere.
- The Urim and Thumim was passed down by many prophets over thousands and thousands of years. The seer stone didn’t work when anyone else tried to use it.
- The Urim and Thumim was ued to translate languages. The seer stone was used to find stuff and locate a silver mine.
- The “rock and hat” quotes come from the RLDS splinter group, beginning in the late 19th century, 50 years after the book of Mormon. The anti-Mormon narrative is that Joseph Smith made up a story about seer stones because he was already using these stones to hunt for treasure, and that’s what everyone was used to associating him with, and then Joseph wizened up and shifted the narrative to “spectacles” to sound more credible. Well if that’s true, why do early quotes mention only the spectacles and say nothing about seer stones? Shouldn’t it be the other way around? Shouldn’t the inital reports to newspapers and friends have mentioned seer stones? Why were they only talked about 50 years later, by an apostate splinter sect?
- Early witnesses described the Urim and Thummim and gold plates both as 6 to 8 inches wide–small enough to fit in a hat. They describe in detail how Joseph Smith placed the Urim and Thummim in the hat.
- Deceptively discredits the vast libraries of study on Book of Mormon theology by LDS professionals.
- Gives more focus to a phony frame that attacks the Mormon church.
- Divides the ranks of the church.
- Establishes a frame that demands a clear, modern explanation in the Book of Mormon for every religious issue in existence, and that it be exactly corroborated by every other Mormon source.